Wednesday, July 14, 2010
GM Backs Volt Battery with Eight-Year Warranty
Lifetime is key because of the high cost of battery packs.
By Kevin Bullis
When a battery company unveils new technology and brags about its long lifetime, the best industry analysts aren't necessarily impressed by charts showing voltage-current curves over hundreds or thousands of discharge cycles. "Show me the warranty," they say. That's a good indication of how long the company really thinks the battery will last.
GM executives have said they expect the battery for its upcoming Volt electric vehicle (actually, a type of plug-in hybrid) will last the life of the car. Now GM has backed up those claims (sort of) by announcing a 8-year, 100,000 mile battery warranty. That's not quite as long as I'd like a car to last--and not as good as a 10-year warranty some had expected--but it's a good amount of time compared to the 3-year warranty offered by some other manufacturers. Nissan, which is coming out with the electric Leaf this year, hasn't yet announced warranty details.
The battery warranty is key, since replacing a full battery pack could cost more than $10,000 by some estimates.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Comments
Shootist
07/14/2010
Posts:31
nopcbs
07/15/2010
Posts:8
Does this kind of garbage infect every level of discourse in this country? You can't even discuss technical topics without running straight into mindless parroting of faux-libertarian talking points!
otherdoug66
07/15/2010
Posts:7
nopcbs
07/15/2010
Posts:8
dfingles
07/15/2010
Posts:2
I just bought a 2003 Suburban, an I have a reasonable expectation that, given its track record, the major parts of the truck, such as the drivetrain, will give me no problems for many years if taken care of properly.
Now compare that with trying to sell an eight year old Volt. The person looking to purchase that car knows that it will definitely need at least $10,000 worth of work after he buys it, no matter how well looked after it is.
Who would want to buy a used Volt?
Tomblvd
07/15/2010
Posts:3
Who would want to buy a used Volt?"
1. At the end of the eight year battery life that battery will should have an 80% capacity rating. Utility companies are already preparing to purchase used EV/PHEV batteries to use for grid storage/smoothing.
2. Eight years from now batteries are almost certainly going to be both better and cheaper. It won't be a $10k "repair", but more likely a $2k "enhancement". The price of a new battery pack minus the sale price for the old. And probably an electric range increase and charge time decrease.
I don't think there will be any problem selling used EVs and PHEVs. The likely problem will be selling gas cars if there are adequate numbers of used electrics.
Remember, those industrial quality electric motors should be good for 300,000+ miles and then need only new bearings, not a new engine. And the body won't have suffered years of stress from ICE vibration and heat. Even the transmissions should be in better shape.
Bob Wallace
07/15/2010
Posts:69
Tomblvd
07/15/2010
Posts:3
And we just provided funds to help a new battery manufacturing plant start up in Michigan. When it gets into full production it is expected that battery prices will drop 70% of what they are today.
My other "assumptions" such as the long life of industrial electric motors, that utility companies are getting ready to purchase used EV batteries, that batteries will still have 80% when they are "used up" for EV use. Those are facts.
I'm pretty comfortable with my assumptions....
Bob Wallace
07/15/2010
Posts:69
<i>"Ten years is the target life (for the battery). Depending on how you use it and where you live, you could see significantly longer time," said David Wallace, engineering group manager for Voltec Battery Systems.</i>
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10399861-54.html
And I don't doubt that electric vehicles can be the future of certain areas of personal transportation. I'm just skeptical of predictions of performance, esp. those coming from automakers. Of course, I hope everybody buying electric cars realize there's most likely a coal or gas powered plant is supplying them with their electricity.
Me, build all the electric cars (that work economically) you want, just let the utilities build the nukes to power them.
THAT is green technology.
Tomblvd
07/15/2010
Posts:3
Up to you....
Bob Wallace
07/15/2010
Posts:69
1. Far more of the costs of nuclear power are represented in the price people pay for that power than for fossil power; coal transfers a very large portion of its costs to people other than the producer or consumer of the power; point in nuclear power's favor.
2. The scale and complexity of conventional nuclear power facilities carry a large price tag that increases the cost for the consumer; this may be alleviated by newer reactor designs, but that's uncertain; it may very well be alleviated by smaller, modular reactor designs, but those are in an approval catch-22; point against nuclear power.
I'd prefer to pay the higher cost of nuclear knowing that it is a dependable, safe and low emission source of baseload power. I'd be much happier if we were looking further into advanced reactor designs, smaller scale modular reactors and a thorium based fuel cycle to deal with proliferation issues.
otherdoug66
07/19/2010
Posts:7
<i>"Ten years is the target life (for the battery). Depending on how you use it and where you live, you could see significantly longer time," said David Wallace, engineering group manager for Voltec Battery Systems.</i>"
"Target life" in the case of EV batteries is the point where their capacity drops to 80%. That means for a 100 mile range EV such as the LEAF the range would now be 80 miles. For the PHEV Volt the electric-only range would be down from 40 to 32.
OK, now let's return to selling an eight year old Volt. Assume the range is down to 32 miles. There are people who would be well served by a PHEV which got only 20 miles of electric range. They could do their daily commutes/driving the kids to school and activities, do their shopping, and then rely on the gas engine for the occasional longer trip.
They wouldn't even have to replace the battery. They could drive the Volt into the ground. (Average US car life is 13.3 years.)
Bob Wallace
07/16/2010
Posts:69
We can look for some guidance to the Prius, which of course has a much smaller pack than that for an EV. The earlier models have a different pack from later models. Replacement of the pack for the earlier models is currently $2300; for the later models, somewhat more. And these cars sold in volumes probably much larger than we should expect for the first round of EVs.
ms
07/15/2010
Posts:188
If enough Volts/whatever are sold there will be aftermarket replacement batteries.
Bob Wallace
07/15/2010
Posts:69
Are you saying that you think the warranty equals an expiration date for the battery pack? Or that the pack will simply cease working at 8 years plus one day? I know that there are real concerns about lifespan, but I don't think a working battery becomes useless because it is a day past the warranty expiration.
otherdoug66
07/15/2010
Posts:7
El Zato
07/15/2010
Posts:5
Still - given the choice between an expensive All Electric or a $27,000 CNG vehicle, I'll take the CNG - mainly because the Internal Combustion Engine technology is well understood, and the natural gas is a domestic energy source that we control (even though we get TON's of the stuff from non domestic sources)
Now if the Volt can be converted to use CNG for powering that 4 cylinder engine that powers the car after the batteries run out, then GM may have something.
mkogrady
07/16/2010
Posts:300
I haven't seen their guarantee yet, but I would expect it to match their claims.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/7879096/Electric-4x4-to-go-into-production.html
Bob Wallace
07/15/2010
Posts:69